Showing posts with label gun rights. Show all posts
Showing posts with label gun rights. Show all posts

Reasonable People (aka ones not named Alex Jones or Piers Morgan) Debate Gun Policy

Tuesday, January 08, 2013

There are intelligent people that debate gun policy. It isn't as sensational and is probably kind of boring to most people, but it does happen. The following is the first part of a discussion with former State Representative, Joan Bauer; Cooley Law Professor, Steve Dulan; President and CEO of the Michigan League for Public Policy, Gilda Jacobs; and MSU Anthropology Professor, Anthony Kolenic. I disagree with a few of the panelists, but I think they made their points intelligently and without ridiculous hyperbole and shouting.

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Claims, No Take Backs

The video below is an example of what we discussed earlier.  If one side of the gun debate has to claim Dirty Fucking Hippies and no-guns-ever pacifists, then the other side has to claim this guy:



More fun here:



This guy is not helpful.  High comedy and a laugh-riot, for sure, but not helpful in the Great Gun Debate.

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My Slightly Informed Opinion on Gun Regulations

Friday, December 21, 2012

Where do we go from here? The regulations I propose below are what I think we should consider. I have not given much thought to what might already be in place or where it bumps up against the 2nd Amendment.

1) Personal Responsibility.
Having personally witnessed a great deal of stupidity when it comes to handling firearms, I have always thought we need strict penalties for irresponsible behavior. In the case of the Newtown shooting, the rifle used was purchased legally. As far as I know, there would be no penalties for the woman who owned it allowing her mentally ill kid access to the weapon. (Had she lived.) If your kid gets a hold of your gun, especially if someone is hurt because of it, you should serve time. Once a Michigan legislator had a handgun drop out of his pocket in the middle of a committee hearing. (If the urban legend is true.) There should have been a penalty for his stupidity as it endangered others. I have personally seen a parent hand rifles to their 10-year-old and let them run off and have fun. Maybe this one is already illegal?

In my experience people have acted as if the rights provided by the 2nd Amendment means freedom from responsibility. If we do nothing else, we need to change that mindset. That is definitely not how I was raised around firearms.

2) Capacity.
I would support a strict limit on magazine capacity. Capacity should be limited to the single digits. Since I have limited knowledge of firearms, I think of hunting shotguns with a four-shell magazine and handguns with something more reasonable than a 10 + magazine capacity. In a recent editorial in the LA Times, a judge who sentenced Congresswomen Gabby Gifford’s assailant and the killer of 6 others said: “Bystanders got to Loughner and subdued him only after he emptied one 31-round magazine and was trying to load another.”

3) Ownership limitations
I would support a limit on the number of weapons you own. Sorry if it infringes on your hobby or fun collection, but your arsenal is unnecessary in a civilized society. Take up stamp collecting. Let’s debate this one.

4) Certain weapons banned.
There should be a ban on certain weapons based on their technical performance. As Smitty says: guns are killing machines. We have a constitutional right to a certain level of killing machine. I am not sure you could argue we have the right a mass-killing machine. I have little doubt we could come up with a list of impermissible characteristics based on their technical performance.


5) Call me a gun-grabber.
Banned firearms, clips, etc. should be bought back by the government at a higher than market price. I don’t support grandfathering existing weapons from restrictions as was done previously. It sounds like Australia has a model for this program. I would like to learn more about it.

6) Ammunition Sales Ammunition sales should be limited.
I am betting this one would be difficult to enforce. I recently read that once you obtain a gun permit in Israel, you are issued your only supply of ammunition. Interesting concept. Liquor sales are controlled by state government. Why not other items?

7) Better and more widely used background checks.
I need to better understand private sale regulations, but this is what I think... Background checks should be instantaneous, reliable, applicable to all guns sales, and include the private sales of weapons. You should need to obtain a purchase permit with your background check before you buy a weapon in a private sale. If you sell a weapon privately without obtaining a copy of said check, you should see a penalty. This would also require a better involvement from mental health providers and would require a discussion about mental illness and confidentiality. I know people can still obtain weapons illegally, but that is no excuse for handing weapons to the mentally ill or to those with a violent background.

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Who ARE We?

Tuesday, December 18, 2012

Steve and I just had a quick back-and-forth at the end of the comments section of the previous post, in which I list a few suggestions that don't and do bug me.  I agree with Steve:  let's do that next, because we start to hash-out some actual policy suggestions that have come up recently, and of which there will certainly be more as Congress will apparently begin to actually debate this issue.

But for now, after reading posts like this, I simply need to say:

Who the hell are we??  What kind of society do we live in where we actually suggest that having armed teachers is a good thing??

Accidental-discharge deaths aside, nobody anywhere arms their teachers because it is just...wrong.

So seriously.  In what kind of strange alternate reality do we dwell where arming teachers like airline pilots and US Marshalls seems like a reasonable suggestion?  Are we so insane, so fearful and so violent that we feel like from now on, we need armed people in classrooms?  This isn't some sort of minor issue from the nutbags.  This is a seriously-debated topic here in Lansing among Serious People.

Or that maybe the reason the kids died is let's-blame-the-victim-because-they-shoulda-bum-rushed-the-gunman?

Good fucking holy mooley on a beach, people.

Look, if the folks who want some gun control measures have to claim the Dirty Hippies and pro-ban-on-everything people on their side, then the anti-ban folks have to claim the "let's arm the teachers" people on their side.  Then we can summarily dismiss them.

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Faculty in Colorado Told to Allow Concealed Carry

Wednesday, August 29, 2012

In many states, college campuses are still a no-go for lawful carry. Michigan makes in unlawful to carry in a college classroom or dormitory. Most campuses ban carry for students and employees. There are some states, such as Utah, that allow it. Well, now Colorado joins them. The Supreme Court of Colorado said that campuses can't prohibit concealed carry. Despite this, some professors said they would cancel class if some permit holder had a concealed gun. The chancellor responded by telling them they could not do this. Personally, I have no problem with university carry. In Michigan, most college students are under 21, so the majority of students would not be able to carry anyway.

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Gun Laws in Wake of the Colorado Shooting

Monday, August 13, 2012

I didn't mean to hijack the previous post and turn it into a gun debate, so I thought I would start another discussion for just that purpose. I keep hearing how we, as in the US, can't have a discussion on this topic for whatever reason. I am skeptical of people making this claim. If I had to guess, most of them are saying this because they just don't want to hear from the "other side." Like any other political/social issue, this one can get heated. I figure that the readers we have are rational and reasonable people, so why don't we have a discussion? What changes do you think are needed?

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Gun Rights News

Wednesday, February 24, 2010

It has been a while since I have blogged on this topic, so I thought it would be a good time to update ATK'ers on a recent case from the 7th Circuit. The case, U.S. v. Skoien, received very little press, but was important because it used Heller to overturn a fairly big federal gun law.

Mr. Skoien was arrested for violating 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9), which prohibits people convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence from possessing a firearm. He had been convicted of misdemeanor domestic battery a year prior to the police finding a shotgun in his truck that he had used to kill a deer during hunting season. He argued that 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9) violated his second amendment right to have a gun for self-defense. In his argument, he crought up Heller. He moved to dismiss the indictment in the US District Court and this was denied. The Court of Appeals vacated the denial and sent the case back to District Court.

Here is the text of the case. Basically, it said that Heller upholds a right to own firearms for self-defense and that the government failed to show that the law was reasonable under an intermediate standard of scrutiny:

The government has approached this case as though all it had to do to defend the constitutionality of § 922(g)(9) is invoke D.C. v. Heller’s language about certain “presumptively lawful” gun regulations — notably, felon-dispossession laws. Not so. Heller held that the Second Amendment secures an individual natural right to possess firearms for self-defense; the opinion’s reference to exceptions cannot be read to relieve the government of its burden of justifying laws that restrict Second Amendment rights. Although Heller did not settle on a standard of review, it plainly ruled out the deferential rationalbasis test; this leaves either strict scrutiny or some form of “intermediate” review. On the facts of this case, we hold that intermediate scrutiny applies. In its usual formulation, this standard of review requires the government to establish that the challenged statute serves an important governmental interest and the means it employs are substantially related to the achievement of that interest.



Later in the decision:

As such, the government’s application of § 922(g)(9) in this case requires less rigorous justification than strict scrutiny because the core right of self-defense identified in Heller is not implicated. Applying intermediate scrutiny, we ask whether the government has established that the statute is substantially related to an important governmental interest. No one questions the importance of the government’s interest in protecting against domestic-violence gun injury and death. The dispute here is about the fit between this important objective and § 922(g)(9)’s blanket ban on firearms possession by persons who have been convicted of a domestic-violence misdemeanor. Under intermediate scrutiny, the government need not establish a close fit between the statute’s means and its end, but it must at least establish a reasonable fit. The government has done almost nothing to discharge this burden. Instead, it has premised its argument almost entirely on Heller’s reference to the presumptive validity of felon-dispossession laws and reasoned by analogy that § 922(g)(9) therefore passes constitutional muster. That’s not enough. Accordingly, we vacate Skoien’s conviction and remand to the district court for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.


I should note that this case is from last fall. Since then, it has been decided that it will be heard en banc, or by the entire court, instead of just a three judge panel. If I had to guess, I would say that the entire court will follow what the panel said. In addition, the fourth circuit has decided a similar case on the same grounds, U.S. v. Chester (4th Cir. Feb. 23, 2010).

I believe both these cases to be sound law and a natural extension of the Heller decision. Let me say that I have no sympathy for people that engage in domestic violence. I think they should be punished appropriately and am not suggesting that society give them a 'pass'. I don't believe 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9) is a fair law and is very similar to zero tolerence laws. First of all, it is a lifetime ban. If you are convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence (under this law) you are forbidden from ever possessing a firearm for any reason. It doesn't matter how much time has elapsed or what you have done to turn your life around. You are out of luck. While it is clear that the state has an interest in protecting citizens from violence, the government was unable to show that people convicted of domestic violence were automatically going to kill someone at some point in the future.

I believe that a better approach to this is to treat it on a case by case basis. Not all cases of domestic violence are the same and they shouldn't be treated the same. The Court should have the discretion to ban certain people from having firearms if they can show some kind of risk to society based on things like past behavior, threats, and the like. I also don't think this should be a lifetime ban. An individual should be able to petition the court to lift the ban if they can show they are no longer a danger to other people.

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