Birthers, Deathers, and Astroturfers.
Saturday, August 08, 2009
I am betting each of us has seen all the shouting going on at townhall meetings on the health insurance reform packages. If not, take a look here and here.
Some of this is manufactured. There is definitely a misinformation campaign that riles up the conspiracy theorists on the right. It has been well-documented that lobbyists have sent out talking points and tactical instructions. It is in-part driven in part by the insurance lobby. Even Sean Hannity's website is being used as an organizing tool.
But at the end of the day, you have to recruit people to come out, which isn’t normally easy, so I ask:
Who are these people?
Anecdotally, Republican party rank and file have been seen at the events, as have employees of major insurance companies and drug companies, but it cannot be all of them.
-Are they everyday people?
-Are they just Republican Party sore losers?
-Are they paid operatives?
-Are they a far right fringe group in the throws of death making one last stand?
-Do they actually think the government is coming to put old people to death?
-Are they just weakminded people manipulated by the lobby corp?
-Other
Who the hell are these people? Please discuss.
14 comments:
I don't buy the idea that this is some fake movement. Considering that there are a significant number of people that are not pleased with so-called "gov't healthcare", I am sure that most are genuine.
One of the Volokh contributors looked at the Democratic response in Grassroots Activism For Me, But Not For Thee. I remember the uproar over the Medicare reform and all the talk about asking the wealthy elderly to pay for some of their own coverage. It certainly contradicts Krugman's ridiculous claim that this is unprecedented.
The DNC also has ads where they ask me to contact the RNC and tell them to call off the mobs. Ok, I'll get right on that. Considering that contribute 0$ to them, I doubt they will listen.
-Are they everyday people?
Most of them probably are.
-Are they just Republican Party sore losers?
I am sure some are.
-Are they paid operatives?
Maybe, but I will have to see some proof.
-Are they a far right fringe group in the throws of death making one last stand?
I am sure that some of these people are fringers, but most probably aren't. Any movement will contain some fringers. Look at the anti-war movement. Most are regular folks, but there are some kooks in the mix.
-Do they actually think the government is coming to put old people to death?
Some people think UN troops are going to put us all in detention camps. I am sure that some people are willing to believe all sorts of stupid things. Remember the ballot initiative in MI to allow physician assisted suicide? The opposition ran ads that implied people would be forced into choosing suicide.
-Are they just weakminded people manipulated by the lobby corp?
Some are, but I think that most are just mad/upset/confused.
I don't doubt that there is some organization to this movement and that some groups are throwing in propaganda and talking points. In this day and age, with how easy it is to send information, I doubt there are any grassroots movements that are entirely "grass roots". It also stands to reason that insurance company and drug company people will be at these events, as they want to exert their influence.
Some of these people are just acting plain silly, but I don't see this movement as something that is all bad. I would prefer that the Administration and Congress proceed carefully and intelligently (unlike they did with TARP) and maybe this will encourage some level of accountability.
Good post, Bob.
This blog entry seems to show how the opposition is countering the anti-reform people with their own organization and isn't exactly grass roots. They have there own strategies and talking points.
As it happens, my relatives in North Carolina are attending one of these rallies today. My brother is what I would characterize as a very rational staunch conservative. He has issues with the Obama administration, and he articulates them well, but he also is very willing to try to understand the other side of the argument, even if he does not agree with it. It would seem that he, his wife, and my mother (and perhaps others in among our friends and relations) are all planning to attend a protest in Raleigh today. I was a little surprised when I heard that they were planning to go (to my knowledge, none of them have ever attended any sort of public demonstration/protest in the past).
I sent him an e-mail asking him why he is attending the rally, in an attempt to understand his personal (and, I suspect, very well-informed) motivations. I have yet to receive a response, but if there is anything relevant in it that would be of interest to others, I will post it here.
My mother explained her motivations to me as "Obama trying to do too much too quickly that will cost too much money for her children and grandchildren." I feel that this criticism is valid on some level, but also believe that the things he has been "spending too much money" on are precisely the things he campaigned on, so I do not have any particular problem with it. But clearly she/they do.
As for the demonstrations, I think that the over-the-top, irrational anger and name-calling is childish and silly, but that there should be room for rational and reasonable debate in this process. How to make that happen with a public that has either been whipped into (or whipped itself into) a frenzy is a challenge.
If "most" of the people screaming "Nazi" and "Fascism" over health insurance reform turn out to really be everyday people, I am going to say something, I don't think I have ever said:
I am moving to Canada.
"My brother is what I would characterize as a very rational staunch conservative."
Now this is what I am looking for. Is this type of person really screaming mad? I could see this type of person being opposed, and maybe even pissed, but does this person really feel that we are approaching facism?
Maybe you guys should also read this from one of Andrew Sullivan's readers and then comment:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/08/is-your-bubble-bursting.html
Plenty of demonstrations have name calling and over the top behavior. It is unfortunate and does little to encourage any kind of intelligent dialog. I also dislike people that shout down speakers at any kind of event. Let them finish, then state your case.
If "most" of the people screaming "Nazi" and "Fascism" over health insurance reform turn out to really be everyday people, I am going to say something, I don't think I have ever said:
I am moving to Canada.
If you are looking to move to a country where protesters don't use words like fascism, it ain't Canada. I can't think of a single president in my lifetime that wasn't called a fascist.
North Korea probably doesn't have many protests, so that is a possibility.
"If you are looking to move to a country where protesters don't use words like fascism, it ain't Canada."
True, but it seems that the sane have won there where it comes to health care. If the insane win here, I will have to question my country.
"North Korea probably doesn't have many protests, so that is a possibility."
That's funny. Yet they too have shitty health insurance.
The link above to the Sully article has made me realize, that the protestors have always been there, but what was brilliant was the way that K-street has tapped into it for their own gain. I have been considering a blog post for a long time that essentially said the crazies have been too quiet since Obama became Prez. Well here they are.
To answer Bob's question:
I don't think my brother is screaming mad. I think he is, as you say, pissed. But I think he also, perhaps, is better able to understand the screaming mad people than I am.
I received the first response from my brother on this topic. In deference to him, I'm not going to reproduce his thoughts here so they can be picked apart by the lefty, pinko...erm...I mean AtK cognoscenti without first checking with him to make sure it's okay. But he did point me to an article by Krauthammer, to which Sullivan also referred yesterday but which I did not read at the time. I figure Krauthammer can take the AtK heat:
link
Is this the "reasonable" opposition position that I/we have been trying to ferret out? And if so, why is this not front and center instead of the name-calling, etc? To (probably over-) quote Sullivan:
"Look: if these people were yelling: 'End the employer tax break!' or 'More Cost-Controls!' or 'Malpractice Reform!' I'd be more sympathetic. But this is blind panic and rage."
Jay-
I would say that Charles Krauthammer's article is exactly what we would like to hear in the debate. I think much of it is factually wrong, but that's OK. If your brother stood up at a health care event and stated this case, it would not likely end in yelling. I would need to accept that it might even make the legislation better.
Unfortunately, people like this will not have the opportunity to make their case; they will be drowned out by the idiots who think the world is ending.
Now if this is what your brother believes, but instead of making his case he shows up and screams down health insurance reform supporters to shut them up, I would have a problem with that.
Thanks for the input.
Jay, thanks for adding an element to this discussion that has been missing. Most people here are for some kind of health care reform, so we don't always hear the opposition in the discussion section.
I hate to sound like a broken record (there is a dated reference), but the MSM isn't really helping. Smitty pointed out to me that they don't seem interested in discussing some of the particulars, but focus on the shouters and the people that have a problem. We get stuck with the opinionated, blowhard, pundits, and they don't always help.
It would be nice if this issue was broken down into distinct components and we could discuss potential solutions and ideas. I doubt we could find something that will make everybody happy, but it would be a hell of alot better than what we have.
If the insane win here, I will have to question my country.
If the insane win, then the only people you can blame are the President and Congress.
Krauthammer raises some good points, but I think he is full of shit, for the most part. I suppose he is at least not throwing around the word fascist, socialist or Nazi, though.
"If the insane win, then the only people you can blame are the President and Congress."
Agreed.
Bob, that Sullivan link is excellent.
"If the insane win, then the only people you can blame are the President and Congress."
Agreed.
Yeah. That's what worries me.
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